On Oct 24, 9:28*am, Andre Jute wrote:
On Oct 23, 12:09*pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
On Oct 21, 8:57*pm, Big Bad Bob BigBadBob-at-mrp3-
wrote:
On 10/21/10 02:09, Patrick Turner so witilly quipped:
On Oct 21, 3:36 am, "Edward *wrote:
Hello,
* * *I'm interested in Velleman tube amp kits. *Does anyone know if Velleman
has quality products?
Thanks,
Eddie
And I had a look at the Velleman schematics which can be found in the
online kit manuals.
snip
I cannot view any specs for the OPT or PT but they are all toroidal.. I
have seen many really horrible toroidal OPTs which have been designed
and wound by morons who have not used sufficiently thick insulation
betwen P and S windings which results in far too much transformer
shunt capacitance. Judging by the advertised LOW prices methinks its
probable the whole range of amp kits or the main parts are all made in
China. Unfortunately, the Chinese have some way to go before I can
endorse most of their audio frequency transformer integrity.
I'm sure knowledgeable ppl might find more to criticise but with minor
modding one could probably greatly improve the product.
was that K404 or K4040? *I found this:http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/pr...iew/?id=350535
The K4040 at the link you just quoted did not have the schematics,
just kit details in 4 languages.
The K4040 looks like the K404. Or did I leave a nought out?
If it would be necessary to modify such a kit for better performance, it
sort of makes the case to just publish an easy-to-build reliable
schematic, chassis layout, and parts list and then convince a single
distributor to offer it as a "kit". *The chassis seems to be the biggest
limiting factor here (somewhat expensive per-unit to do a limited run,
lots of uncertainty on stocking completed chassis, etc.). *Convincing
Velleman to offer an upgraded version of their kit might actually be
cheaper.
(I have a nice big roll of 0.1" 63:37 PbSn WRAP and I'm not afraid to
use it)
Without seeing the Velleman on my bench and examining it, I don't know
what I might think about the build quality.
But in a manual I did find elsewhere the schematic was given and I
thought some changes would make considerable improvement.
What Andre says in favour of Velleman may be 100% correct and
certainly the price is good.
With a quad of EL34 in PP one can indeed get superlative performance
without ever moving above the class A to AB threshold.
At listening levels which will never cause a divorce the THD is below
0.03%, providing you have at least average speaker sensitivity of say
90dB/W/M.
One wonders how a kit can be prepared for the price and still generate
a profit, hence my concerns that parts are sourced from China. Not
everything from China is crook though. So let's not assume anything.
Its just that I have had a number of Chinese made amps land on my
bench for drastic surgery to remove the inbuilt fire crackers so
blithely included by our Chinese friends....
Patrick Turner.
The trick of making a profit is to sell basically the same kit for
many years; Velleman has been selling that big EL34 kit for decades,
so I imagine they've long, long since recovered the design and
development costs, and of course profit is not just the margin but
related to the number of units sold, and that kit is a bestseller, for
the good reasons I already outlined. It's a whole different paradigm
from the manufacture of custom amps one at a time. On the other hand,
I imagine Velleman loses money on every kit they sell on which they
have to meet their guarantee to fix it if the builder gets it wrong.
For a review I was writing, I deliberately built another, smaller,
Velleman kit wrong, just to see what the service was like, and it was
excellent: they found the error (an ear on a variable resistor bent in
under the body of the thing), repaired it and had it back to me in
working condition less than a fortnight later. To my mind, for the the
amateur builder, *that* is the "added value" Bob talks about. You
expect proven design and stunning casework for the premium price
(there are many cheaper kits), but if you're evaluating the "something
else" you get, surely a guarantee to "get you going" must top the
list.
Sure, volume sales helps to make a profit.
If one works backwards from say the price of a typical Hammond OPT and
assigns the freight, profit and costs of everything used one finds
that it is exceedingly difficult to compete with Hammond on price
alone.
But Hammond surely do have to pay costs which always rise over time at
about the rate of inflation, or "consumer price index" and perhaps by
a higher margin if the demand for the item reduces and sales numbers
shrink.
So to keep making the same profit one must raise prices each year.
In 1994 there was a local guy here called Bill, and he tried to make
40W per channel integrated stereo tube amps for about $3,000 which
was not too bad a price considering the Chinese had almost nothing to
offer anyone, and that if you wanted a decent tube amp you bought from
ARC, CJ, Manely Labs, or you got a kit which almost nobody thought of
doing, or wanted to do, because it seems like it is too technical, and
with damned dangerous voltages. So 3 grand was a good price but Bill
may have only made 3 amps in 2 years and that didn't pay many
expenses. He tried making 10 SS amps at a time and that didn't work
out either.
I watched Bill and though that because I don't pay rent or a mortgage,
I could make something and sell it.
Well, it is now 17 years later and sure, maybe I make 1 pair of amps
each year, and for SE class A and 60W per channel in 2 monoblocs,
price is $10,000.
But there are other companies making more hi-falooting hi-end class A
amps than I do and many produce 1/2 the PO at twice the price. The
Chinese usually charge peanuts for their amps, and you get what you
pay for.
I have a fair idea about costs. And part of the cost is labour for
assembly time. The dollar value of this usually a small % of the total
price, and with many kits of anything when the maker offers to supply
the item fully assembled and working, the price increase is not
great. So when a kit price seems low, and you assume say 20% of that
for labour costs, then there isn't much left over for profits.
In China, I suspect Quad 40 amps are made in a factory for about $200.
But in the hi-fi shop they are many thousands of bucks.
The western middle man makes the biggest rip off.
So if Velleman can avoid the middle men and sell direct, they don't
have to share profits.
But I have never seen a Velleman here in Oz, maybe the freight cost is
too high.
I raise my hat to good products at a low price.
I don't have to raise it very often.
But I also raise my hat to mediocre products at high prices,
For then I stand a chance to be able to compete.....
Patrick Turner.
Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
*http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
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constructor"
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